tavtire

P400 Wheels and Tire Options

Documentation of period P400 Miura tires and wheels

Description	Lamborghini documentation source or known OEM equipped Miuras	listed tire brand and size	tire dimensions dia/section/tread - mm/inch	wheel size	Campagnolo graphics	notes
1967 P400 Miura	Serie M/1 brochure, bull on chain, orange	Pirelli Cinturato HS 210 VR 15		7.00x15 Atesia alloy
1967 P400 Miura	P400 Drivers Manual	Pirelli Cinturato HS 210 VR 15
1968 P400 Miura	P400 known oem tire/rim	Pirelli Cinturato HS 205 HS 15 CN72	703/225/150, 27.7/8.9/5.9	7x15 Miura Campagnolo
1968 P400 Miura
1969 P400S Miura	P400 Miura S istruzionio tecniche	GR 70 VR 15 Pirelli Cinturato HS		not listed
1969 P400S Miura	P400S known oem tire/rim	GR 70 VR 15 Pirelli Cinturato HS CN73	680/228/177, 26.8/9.0/7.0	7x15 Miura Campagnolo
1970 P400S Miura
1970 P400S Miura
1971 P400SV front	P400SV owners manual	FR 70 VR 15 Pirelli Cinturato HS CN73	670/
1971 P400SV rear	P400SV owners manual	HR 60 VR 15 Pirelli Cinturato HS CN73	670/
1972 P400SV
1972 P400SV

Weight of Miura Campagnolo wheel with period Pirelli CN72 205HS15 with tube ready to install is 51.0 lbs

2006/2007 P400 Miura Tire size, dimensions, brand, rating

Description	Information source	current available tire brand and size	tire dimensions dia/section/tread - mm/inch	wheel size	notes
P400 Miura , P400S Miura	www.michelin-passion.com	Michelin XWX 215 VR 15	683/221/180, 26.9/8.7/7.0	7x15 Miura	VR=149mph	$400
P400 Miura		Michelin XWX 225/70VR15	697/228/			$400
	www.tirerack.com	Pirelli P4000 215 WR 70 15	681/221/xxx, 26.8/8.7/	7x15 Camp	WR=168mph	$87


P400SV Miura front	www.tirerack.com	Pirelli P4000 215/70 WR 15	681/221/xxx, 26.8/8.7/xxx			$87
P400SV Miura rear	www.tirerack.com	Pirelli Scorpion Zero 255/60 15 VR	686/259/xxx, 27/10.2/xxx			$87

help needed -p400@comcast.net
Cinturato - CN72, CN73, CN12, CN36

Tire size calculator - http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

text below from Vintage Lamborghini Garage group - http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/VintageLambo

www.tirerack.com, search by size and select W speed rating. The tire to get is the Pirelli P4000. These tires have been around a while, and are found on many vintage high perf autos. They aren't the best at any one catagory, but are very good overall tires. Tires have a freshness date code on them(seriously). Find and inspect the date code on the tires you buy. If they are older than about 6-8 months, I would insist that they get you fresher tires. They age just sitting in a wherehouse. And age even faster when left in the sun. I have 215-70VR-15. Meets the rating for the car, is attractive, and seem to wear quite well. Doc

A friend of mine has a mid production p400 Miura that still has the original G 15 Pirelli spair tire. The size is between the P205 and the P215, but closer to the P215. He replaced his tires with the 215x70x15vr rated Pirelli Super touring tires and is very happy with them. Jeff

The only company that I found with speed (V rated) tires is the Pirelli scorpion line. They look to be a fairly aggressive tread, but they work great on front and rear and are good to 160mph. It's the only answer I could find for my Miura SV and they're working out just great. Put 215/70 VR 15 super touring 4000's on the front and 255/60 R15 scorpion Zero's on the rear. That's for an SV. David

06/2005 Hi Everybody, I had an interesting issue that developed during a lunchtime trip to my nearby Discount Tire shop. Yesterday, I had the first of two tires re-mounted on my newly-restored Borrani wheels. The guy who did the work was extremely conscientious and did a fine job of not putting any marks on the new wheels. Today, I returned with the last three wheels to get them re-mounted. A new manager came over an said they would not mount the tires because the tires are tubeless type and therefore Discount Tire could not put tubes in a tubeless tire. I was a bit confused and pointed out that they had mounted a pair only yesterday so when did this policy start? He got a bit agitated but finally agreed to let the technician mount the tires (same person who had done such good work yesterday). Which brings up a question. What is wrong with installing tubes in a tubeless tire?? As all owners of the early cars that are equipped with wire wheels know, you have to use tubes or else you will have a flat tire. The wire wheels simply do not seal well enough to hold air. Are there tires available for our cars (with the correct speed rating, sizes, etc.) that are made for tubes? I asked the manager that question and he couldn't answer. It may be that I simply ran into a store manager who was making up his own rules. Or he may have a point, in which case, I would like to know the correct answer to this problem.Does anybody know the answer? Jack

Re: Tubes in Tubeless Tires? - This is a good week for me because I finally have both the time to answer my VLG email and some actual relevant information:
I just spent a few days in Europe hosted by Pirelli at the Circuit Paul Ricard, testing out their new "Eufori@" run-flat tire (not a typo). I mentioned to one of their head engineers that I run tubes in my Pirelli P4000s and he made a grimace. Abrasion is the big concern, as the tubeless tires have structural ribbing on the inside of the carcass that can abrade the tube and lead to a potentially cataclysmic blow-out. Probably a bigger issue with cars that are driven more regularly. My boss has a '64 E-type on which he runs the same P4000 tires and the same Michelin tubes and he has had no problems, but then he drives the E less often than I drive the Espada. AR
Forgot to add: there's also an issue with the valve stem. The tubes can move relative to the wheel and at some point sheer the valve stem off. In the old days they sold tubes with metal sheaths over the valve stems or metal valve stems but those are getting hard to find (in fact, I couldn't find any when I bought mine). I have noticed on one tire that the wheel is slowly infringing on the valve stem. Eventually it will rub through. AR

Re: Tubes in Tubeless Tires? Hi Aaron, I noticed the ribs on the interior of the tires too. I guess it is a feature of tubeless tires - don't know why. But the question still begs - what are we supposed to do when you cannot buy tires that were meant to be used with tubes? Did you get to talk with the Pirelli folks about the rumor regarding reproducing some of the classic tires; i.e., the Cinturatos? I have also noticed the stem issue. On two of my wheels, the holes for the tube stem are larger in diameter than the other three. I was planning on making a teflon spacer to fill the gap. It's always something....Cheers,Jack

Re: Tubes in Tubeless Tires? Jack: Having owned and operated a tire shop of my own for three and a half years,had a Goodyear independant dealership, and managed/operated a tire shop for others before that, I was in the business when the changeover to radials from bias ply came about. The Mfg's of radial tires make a tube (Radial tube- or tube for a radial tire) to be used in a Rim and tire combo that has to have a tube based on the Rim type. Cast alum Rims were very porous, and Wire wheels not all were sealed on the inside with an epoxy coating as were Tru-Spokes or Daytons, so we have Radial tubes. We have been using these for many years, since the early seventies. Many of the racing radials require a tube in formula3, Nascar, IMSA, CART, SCCA, NHRA, IHRA, And Bonneville Speed Trials, granted they aren't driven thousands of miles, but the loads and speeds must surpass what we put on our tires/wheels. You must use a Tire Talcum powder in the tire to keep the tube from sticking/balling up, creasing etc. Hope this helps clear up some questions. B/R Dave (lambodave) Conrad

08/16/05 - vlg
I've been thinking about making a run of 10 collars which mount flush to the hub, and provide a true surface for the wheel to be properly balanced. Anyone else interested in a collar (at cost, of course)? TK ______________________________ I haven't had too much trouble with wire wheels (or the Campie equivalents) as they seem to be able to set them up between cones on the high speed balancers. One of my MGs uses an unusual peg drive Dunlop knock-on steel wheel like a D type Jaguar, and I had to make up a collar for those so the drive pegs didn't foul the cones. A suggestion, before you spend a lot of money and time on designing an adaptor - look at item #76 - http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29136 The Triumphs use a bolt on adaptor. The Campagnolos use the same Rudge Whitworth patent design and spline size. For $88 you can buy ready made adaptors that may do the trick on a balancer (you'd have to check and see). Bill________________________________
Here's something to keep in mind when balancing any spline-mounted wheel: http://www.mwsint.com/Fitting.htm#Balancing%20centre%20lock Almost all wheel balancing machines use method B in the illustration, which does not give a true center mount. Build the proper jig from parts (as Bill suggests), or better yet have them balanced on the car. This also balances the hub and brake rotor. Chris

from VLG Fred written in 1999 -
Original tires (that I had on the car 400GT2+2, boy were they shot...) were Pirelli 205VR15 Cinturato HS and Pirelli 205 15 tires. Jack is running VR205-65 15 Yokohama tires. Bill is running 225-70HR 15 BF Goodrich Comp TAs. TireRack recommended P225/70 HR15 HTR 200 Sumitomos(Rim Width Range 6.00 to 7.50). On the 205-65s Jack cautioned that The disadvantage to these tires is the fact that you end up lower to the ground and must be extremely aware of dips and curbs!

I ended up going with the 225/70x15 Sumitomo because they matched Bill's Comp TA size, and because they only cost $50 each! (I don't plan on doing any Vegas-Reno high-speed runs in the near future...) TireRack has a neato Drop Ship deal where they ship the tires to a tire installer who has already agreed to work with them. This cost me $32 in freight, and unbelievably the tires arrived in 2 days (out of Reno). Sheesh, I couldn't even drive to Reno for $32.

I live in Pacifica (near SF) so I called several of the recommended installers (I think the TireRack list is almost 2000 long and you can search by closest to your address) and of course they couldn't work with Borannis. Fortunately, a bit further away, about 10 miles, I found Waterfront Automobili (Ferrari Specialists) and Sal Garcia, the owner, said he could do it no problem. He recommended I get all new tubes and not mess with the existing ones. He suggested Kahn & Keville, the local Goodyear dealer, and they had them for only $15/each (Coker wanted $25 each, however read on, maybe I should have gone with them). The tube number is TP1415M.

The problem with these tubes, as Sal pointed out before hand, is that the stem hole in my Boranni wheels is .70" which is much larger than the new tube's stem dia. The solution is a small plastic spacer or washer that fits on the stem to take up the slack and fill the hole. It's possible that the tube from Coker Tires (www.coker.com) doesn't need this spacer, I'm not sure, they would know. Their recommended tube is their number TR-13 (225/235R14/15 RADIAL) for $25.95. I was in a hurry so I went with the Goodyear. However, since the Goodyear didn't have the spacer I needed to track it down, and found it at British Wire Wheel in Watsonville. Hey, it was a nice drive, and since they have a $50 minimum order and the spacers cost .25 each, they gave them to me. )) If it's free,
I'll take three. (They gave me 5, no dummies they.)

All of this went to Waterfront Automobili and Sheldon mounted and balanced the tires (beautifully, I might add, thank you Sheldon!) for $35/ea. He saved the little pieces that fit on and around the old valve stems and gave them to me in a baggie.

Sal was very nice about the whole th ing and since it took a couple of hours we sat around and talked about the Ferrari 330 GTS and 365 GT 2+2 that were being serviced there. The 330 was getting a rebuilt motor, which as of this writing is topping $30k. As for the actual Sumitomo tires on the 400GT -- hey, did I tell you
they were only $50/ea? :'D Obviously, they are an improvement on the road, what with their modern technology and all. They really don't look bad either. They
have the same general profile as the original tires, but a bit beefier (wider). Hardly noticable, they don't look out of place. Except the tread pattern is obviously modern and I'm not thrilled with the look of the tread where it wraps around to the side. Almost looks trucklike when the sun hits it just right.

The option, of course, was to go with vastly more expensive tires to get the original look. Everybody (including Coker) says they can be got for @$400/each, but I'll let somebody else write that article. I have a long way to go before I start doing the concours thing.

I'm really happy with the new tires and the way everything worked out. I'll tell you about my suspension adventures when I'm done with them -- I'm close.
Fred
PS:
Sal Garcia, Waterfront Automobili, 1310 17th Street, San Francisco,
CA 94107, 415-861-2223, email: ferrari dr@aol.com

Jim Judd, British Wire Wheel, 444 Airport Blvd., Suite 114,
Watsonville, Ca 95076, 800-732-9866, email:
sales@britishwirewheel.com

BTW, Jim recommends Dayton for Boranni rebuilds...

Hi Philippe, Wow i like nothing better than pictures of old OEM stuff for documentation! thanks for such an obscure photo! i have attached a photo of items discussed between Miura owners with your photo added in. The Miura S series (using G70 CN73s) and the later SVs used this exact tube and details at the stem. This 69-73 era stem kinda looks like a tubeless stem to most onlookers.
Not the same stem details on a pure 67-68 P400 or early S with 205HR CN72s.

note from Bob 08/06 - The hex nut seems to pull the tube tight to the rim. The very bottom knurled ringnut does not turn. The reducing bushing is metal like Muratori's which is also upside down. Imprinted on the tube at the base of the stem in a circular fashion is "Made in Italy Bridgeport".

P400 stem details

editors note - <B> on the metal valve most likely stands for Bridgeport, the tube stem manufacturer, based on finding above.

my own reference for tube valve types

from Bob S. 08/15/06 -Here are a couple more links to tube info:

http://www.mwsint.com/Info_tables/Classico.htm#wheelHubSpoke

This is an east coast distributor.

http://www.sascosports.com/products/tire_info.htm

There is a paragraph about these tubes on this page.

posted by Greg at VLG , now in archives, July 2002 -
Not to beat an ol' thread to death, but ...
1.) Gary is absolutely right about the variation in miura type castings over the years. My original set of 71 SV wheels are slightly different from the set I bought from Technomagnesio circa 1988 (Technomagnesio owned Campagnolo at the time). The outer rim of the more recent wheels are faced off in a rather sharp way as compared to the originals. However, I was very enthused to see that the more recent wheels had a circumferential safety bead. Since I run modern tires on the recent set of wheels, I feel safer all the way around (I drive the car, at speed, in safe environments... I do not drive the car that way with my CN12s).

2.) The back space dimensions of the 7 inch Miura wheels are identical to the 9 inch SV wheels. Simply stated, the extra 2.0 inches of the SV wheel are all out-board of the hub spline. Stated in yet another way, the SV 9 inch wheel has an extra negative 1.00 inch of offset with respect to the 7 inch wheel.

9 inch wheel:
over-all width: 10.150 inches
width between flanges: 9.00 inches
dist. from outer surface of inner flange to beginning of taper of hub spline: 3.985 inches
offset to beginning of taper of hub spline: -1.090 inches

7 inch wheel:
over-all width: 8.150 inches
width between flanges: 7.00 inches
dist, from outer surface of inner flange to beginning of taper of hub spline: 3.985 inches
offset to beginning of taper of hub spline: - 0.090 inches

The above measurements were obtained off my 71 SV wheels using a 12 inch Starrett vernier caliper. The difference in distance is 2.00 inches, not the 1.75 that you mentioned in a previous email. So, the statement, The 9 wheels are 1.75 wider on the outside. This means that the edge of the tire is about 1.5 + 1.75 = 3.25 further out on an SV ... I agree with this if you change the final dimension to 3.5 inches for the outer edge of the tire.

3.) Consequently, SVs gain an additional 1.00 inch of track (per side) from the offset of the 9 inch wheels and 1.5 inches of track from the out-board location of the SV upright with respect to the P400/S. The additional 1.00 inch being provided by the 1.00 offset of the 9. inch SV rear wheel (to repeat myself).

4.) It's not clear from your email yesterday if Gary actually moved the upright outboard 1.5 inches... or if he kept that location the same and cut into the frame structure to locate the inner pivot points and retain the convenience of using the stock half-shaft length. I believe that this was one of Mark's points. If the upright was retained in the original P400/S location and is not 1.5 inches out-board of that position... you do not have even the basic control arm setup of the SV... and may have compromised frame rigidity. It would be worthwhile if you could check this out for us...

5.) Even if you have an upright (with modified Espada parts) that is 1.5 inches out-board of the stock P400/S location, but retain 7 inch wheels ... you will still not have SV suspension... because the SV suspension has the additional 1.00 inch of track that is gained from the offset of the 9.0 inch SV wheel (another point Mark made..).

6.) I understand from previous discussions with Jeff Stephan (Mr. Miura) that 9 inch SV wheels slight rub the inner fender of the stock P400/S. This suggests that if you where to cut-up your suspension, move the uprights outward by 1.5 inches and yet run 7 inch wheels... that you would have approximately 0.5 inches of clearance with your modified car. Personally, if I were to change anything at the stern of a P400/S, I'd pay the $8k, retain the stock (original) suspension and run the 9 inch wheels (slightly pull out the rear body work).

While I'm on the topic of Miuras... I have to say that you, I, and everyone else who met the man at the 25th Anniversary know which car he brought to the celebration and which car he couldn't say enough about ... (and yes, he did put P400/S eyebrows on his SV). I only mention this because it appears that Fred has been reading too many magazines and taking too many drives in David Fox's LP400 to keep his grip on reality! Greg